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	<title>Comments on: Class Politics</title>
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		<title>By: Daniel Carins</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7191</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Carins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If it&#039;s worth me noting a UK perspective - here in the UK we&#039;ve had a centre-left Labour government since 1997, that borrowed heavily from the outgoing centre-right administrations of Margaret Thatcher and John Major.  Tony Blair left as PM and Gordon Brown, whom many considered to be on the left of Blair, has taken over and has been deeply unpopular.

However, as Gordon Brown was previously Chancellor of the Exchequer (as in the finance minister), given the current economic troubles, he is now enjoying a fillip in the polls and is gaining on the Tories, who are seen as closely allied with the city bankers and traders who are seen as the causes of the stock market collapse and credit crunch etc.

Labour party membership, after years of decline from left wingers who have been disgusted with Iraq, support for nuclear weapons and power, dismal progress on tackling climate change, numerous scandals involving donations to the party etc etc, is now on the up again.

The reason?  Possibly because left wingers now see that as the Tories are riding high in the polls, and that a general election is approaching, people are scared that the Tories will get back into office.  Even a right-leaning Labour party is preferential to a Tory government that will stand for protection of privilege.

In 2004, the Tories were decimated, and now they&#039;ve come back in the face of Labour complacency by adopting &quot;compassionate&quot; policies about the environment and social justice.  In 2008 Labour is decimated, and there are rumblings that they&#039;re coming back by adopting some of the left-wing values that they abandoned under Blair.  If you look underneath that, you&#039;ll notice that there&#039;s possibly evidence that the country as a whole is becoming more concerned with social justice - the villains of the stock collapse are the mega rich, the bankers, the bonus culture, the culture of excess.  In its place is a new fashion for frugality, for attempts of self-sufficiency, for slower living, for worrying less about the rat race.

Maybe the same is happening in the states?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s worth me noting a UK perspective &#8211; here in the UK we&#8217;ve had a centre-left Labour government since 1997, that borrowed heavily from the outgoing centre-right administrations of Margaret Thatcher and John Major.  Tony Blair left as PM and Gordon Brown, whom many considered to be on the left of Blair, has taken over and has been deeply unpopular.</p>
<p>However, as Gordon Brown was previously Chancellor of the Exchequer (as in the finance minister), given the current economic troubles, he is now enjoying a fillip in the polls and is gaining on the Tories, who are seen as closely allied with the city bankers and traders who are seen as the causes of the stock market collapse and credit crunch etc.</p>
<p>Labour party membership, after years of decline from left wingers who have been disgusted with Iraq, support for nuclear weapons and power, dismal progress on tackling climate change, numerous scandals involving donations to the party etc etc, is now on the up again.</p>
<p>The reason?  Possibly because left wingers now see that as the Tories are riding high in the polls, and that a general election is approaching, people are scared that the Tories will get back into office.  Even a right-leaning Labour party is preferential to a Tory government that will stand for protection of privilege.</p>
<p>In 2004, the Tories were decimated, and now they&#8217;ve come back in the face of Labour complacency by adopting &#8220;compassionate&#8221; policies about the environment and social justice.  In 2008 Labour is decimated, and there are rumblings that they&#8217;re coming back by adopting some of the left-wing values that they abandoned under Blair.  If you look underneath that, you&#8217;ll notice that there&#8217;s possibly evidence that the country as a whole is becoming more concerned with social justice &#8211; the villains of the stock collapse are the mega rich, the bankers, the bonus culture, the culture of excess.  In its place is a new fashion for frugality, for attempts of self-sufficiency, for slower living, for worrying less about the rat race.</p>
<p>Maybe the same is happening in the states?</p>
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		<title>By: Class Politics of Generational Innovation &#171; College Culture</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7099</link>
		<dc:creator>Class Politics of Generational Innovation &#171; College Culture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7099</guid>
		<description>[...] Both generations have something valuable to offer but neither is superior.  Neither adequately represents the country as a whole.  Because of the imbalance in attitude, I agree with the second article I mentioned earlier and written by Richard Florida Class Politics, &#8220;These class divides will only deepen. Fear and anxiety will probably get worse. And a strange kind of reactive populism, much worse than anything we have seen before, could be on the rise. Unless Mr. Obama can fashion a broad, inclusive appeal that extends the benefits of the creative economy to working and service economies, the bitterness he himself acknowledged, in a moment of candor, will grow deeper.&#8221;   http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Both generations have something valuable to offer but neither is superior.  Neither adequately represents the country as a whole.  Because of the imbalance in attitude, I agree with the second article I mentioned earlier and written by Richard Florida Class Politics, &#8220;These class divides will only deepen. Fear and anxiety will probably get worse. And a strange kind of reactive populism, much worse than anything we have seen before, could be on the rise. Unless Mr. Obama can fashion a broad, inclusive appeal that extends the benefits of the creative economy to working and service economies, the bitterness he himself acknowledged, in a moment of candor, will grow deeper.&#8221;   http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: hayden fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7092</link>
		<dc:creator>hayden fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7092</guid>
		<description>John, many of the words are the same but I think it&#039;s more than not meaning what he says; the terms of art are changing.  I don&#039;t think we&#039;ll see significantly higher taxes, Obama will most likely lift some of the taxes slightly to appease the liberals and by and large maintain the current status quo; he&#039;ll argue that current economic conditions do not permit a wholesale tax increase and leave the matter be for another day.  But I think beyond that we&#039;ll see lots of behind-the-scenes targeted tax cuts and levies designed to stimulate policy objectives like free and fair trade and development of the new green deal energy economy which will be huge in America.

John, I have personally started-up 3 for profit businesses during the last 2 years and a not-for-profit performing arts booster organization; and am deeply involved in the non-profit community at large.  I share many of your views.  I have reservations about Obama&#039;s economic policies and the proposition of too many liberals in office but it&#039;s time to give Obama&#039;s change a try.  The real test will come after the election.  Many independents and socially liberal Republicans are going to give Obama and the Dems a chance and they will show us if they&#039;re ready to lead; and whether he truly does represent a new political movement or just more of the same liberal polices masquerading behind a fresh new face.

If Obama governs from the center, like Clinton did but without the scandals, he&#039;ll have enough of the support of the independents and socially liberal Republicans to withstand the conservative counter-punch.  If not, we&#039;ll be back to where we came from or, more likely, a new place altogether.

Michael, we&#039;ll turn you into an optimist eventually...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, many of the words are the same but I think it&#8217;s more than not meaning what he says; the terms of art are changing.  I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ll see significantly higher taxes, Obama will most likely lift some of the taxes slightly to appease the liberals and by and large maintain the current status quo; he&#8217;ll argue that current economic conditions do not permit a wholesale tax increase and leave the matter be for another day.  But I think beyond that we&#8217;ll see lots of behind-the-scenes targeted tax cuts and levies designed to stimulate policy objectives like free and fair trade and development of the new green deal energy economy which will be huge in America.</p>
<p>John, I have personally started-up 3 for profit businesses during the last 2 years and a not-for-profit performing arts booster organization; and am deeply involved in the non-profit community at large.  I share many of your views.  I have reservations about Obama&#8217;s economic policies and the proposition of too many liberals in office but it&#8217;s time to give Obama&#8217;s change a try.  The real test will come after the election.  Many independents and socially liberal Republicans are going to give Obama and the Dems a chance and they will show us if they&#8217;re ready to lead; and whether he truly does represent a new political movement or just more of the same liberal polices masquerading behind a fresh new face.</p>
<p>If Obama governs from the center, like Clinton did but without the scandals, he&#8217;ll have enough of the support of the independents and socially liberal Republicans to withstand the conservative counter-punch.  If not, we&#8217;ll be back to where we came from or, more likely, a new place altogether.</p>
<p>Michael, we&#8217;ll turn you into an optimist eventually&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Warner</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7076</link>
		<dc:creator>John Warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7076</guid>
		<description>Hayden

It is surreal that many friends argue, as you do, not to worry about Obama because he doesn&#039;t really mean what he says.

We ought to care about those left behind. It&#039;s called philanthropy, which nurtures human compassion and relationships. Philanthropy does more for the giver than the recipient. 

If we end up with Obama, Pelosi, Reid and a filibuster proof Senate, they will decimate the creative class&#039; incentives to do what only they can to do to pull us back from the abyss. We ignore that at our peril. Compelling people like Joe the Plumber to share their wealth under penalties of imprisonment is toxic and ultimately damages both the giver and the receiver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hayden</p>
<p>It is surreal that many friends argue, as you do, not to worry about Obama because he doesn&#8217;t really mean what he says.</p>
<p>We ought to care about those left behind. It&#8217;s called philanthropy, which nurtures human compassion and relationships. Philanthropy does more for the giver than the recipient. </p>
<p>If we end up with Obama, Pelosi, Reid and a filibuster proof Senate, they will decimate the creative class&#8217; incentives to do what only they can to do to pull us back from the abyss. We ignore that at our peril. Compelling people like Joe the Plumber to share their wealth under penalties of imprisonment is toxic and ultimately damages both the giver and the receiver.</p>
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		<title>By: RF</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7069</link>
		<dc:creator>RF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7069</guid>
		<description>All - Great points.  Many of the things you mention, especially Brian&#039;s point about Andrew Gelman&#039;s research, were in the original draft which was cut by more than half to fit.  As Gelman shows the key is the geography of class. Rich people generally vote Republican, Poorer people generally vote Democrat. But rich people and those who work in creative class jobs (esp richer people in those jobs) and those in creative class states, are much more likely to be Democrats. So one can say there are creative class states and a creative class geography. That is the geography of economic advantage amd diversity and open-mindedness. So it might make sense to call if a geographic class war. Maybe I should post the longer piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All &#8211; Great points.  Many of the things you mention, especially Brian&#8217;s point about Andrew Gelman&#8217;s research, were in the original draft which was cut by more than half to fit.  As Gelman shows the key is the geography of class. Rich people generally vote Republican, Poorer people generally vote Democrat. But rich people and those who work in creative class jobs (esp richer people in those jobs) and those in creative class states, are much more likely to be Democrats. So one can say there are creative class states and a creative class geography. That is the geography of economic advantage amd diversity and open-mindedness. So it might make sense to call if a geographic class war. Maybe I should post the longer piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7033</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7033</guid>
		<description>I agree about the divisions, but not about the backlash being nastier than ever. America&#039;s political and social life has never been easy. In the 1950&#039;s the Klan and White Citizens Councils terrorized Blacks, Gays were beat up and arrested, goons broke up demonstrations, domestic violence was a private affair. Today is nasty, but its mostly verbal and there has been progress.

One of Obama&#039;s lines from the summer about overcoming racial conflict was something like &quot;People want to do the right thing, but they want it to be easy. We can do it, but it&#039;s not going to be pretty and it&#039;s not going to be easy.&quot; I believe the same thing applies to our political divisions. The work doesn&#039;t end with the election, it&#039;s just the beginning. Hopefully the creative class will be part of it. A large part will be realizing Richard&#039;s idea about making all work creative and breaking down the class barriers. 

I sometimes think Hayden is a little Polyannish about how America can do anything, but I do believe we can get through this. Last Spring I thought it was almost unthinkable that we would be about to elect a dark skinned man with a foreign name, and yet it seems to be coming. And regardless of the eventual margins, if North Carolina and North Dakota are swing states this is reaching beyond Latte-land. 

The Bush administration has been a disaster and has left the country with a lot to clean up, but that may also be an opportunity to try new ways. But I do agree with Richard, and Obama, it&#039;s not going to be pretty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree about the divisions, but not about the backlash being nastier than ever. America&#8217;s political and social life has never been easy. In the 1950&#8217;s the Klan and White Citizens Councils terrorized Blacks, Gays were beat up and arrested, goons broke up demonstrations, domestic violence was a private affair. Today is nasty, but its mostly verbal and there has been progress.</p>
<p>One of Obama&#8217;s lines from the summer about overcoming racial conflict was something like &#8220;People want to do the right thing, but they want it to be easy. We can do it, but it&#8217;s not going to be pretty and it&#8217;s not going to be easy.&#8221; I believe the same thing applies to our political divisions. The work doesn&#8217;t end with the election, it&#8217;s just the beginning. Hopefully the creative class will be part of it. A large part will be realizing Richard&#8217;s idea about making all work creative and breaking down the class barriers. </p>
<p>I sometimes think Hayden is a little Polyannish about how America can do anything, but I do believe we can get through this. Last Spring I thought it was almost unthinkable that we would be about to elect a dark skinned man with a foreign name, and yet it seems to be coming. And regardless of the eventual margins, if North Carolina and North Dakota are swing states this is reaching beyond Latte-land. </p>
<p>The Bush administration has been a disaster and has left the country with a lot to clean up, but that may also be an opportunity to try new ways. But I do agree with Richard, and Obama, it&#8217;s not going to be pretty.</p>
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		<title>By: CR</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7014</link>
		<dc:creator>CR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7014</guid>
		<description>Mr. Fisher,

You may be right, at least for today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Fisher,</p>
<p>You may be right, at least for today.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Knudsen</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-7006</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Knudsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-7006</guid>
		<description>Richard,

A very fascinating column!  Two quick things tho.  I think a few times you&#039;ve mentioned Andrew Gelman, from Columbia.  He finds that in fact, in &quot;red&quot; states rich people are much more likely to vote for the GOP but working class people are more likely to vote Democrat.  How does this fit in with your class conflict hypothesis? 

It also seems as though the Democrats are more or less guaranteed to get a supermajority of both the African American and Hispanic American working class vote.  So, that leaves only a question with the white working class.  Are you essentially making a comment about the white working class (a dwindling demographic segment BTW) and their right-wing populist proclivities?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>A very fascinating column!  Two quick things tho.  I think a few times you&#8217;ve mentioned Andrew Gelman, from Columbia.  He finds that in fact, in &#8220;red&#8221; states rich people are much more likely to vote for the GOP but working class people are more likely to vote Democrat.  How does this fit in with your class conflict hypothesis? </p>
<p>It also seems as though the Democrats are more or less guaranteed to get a supermajority of both the African American and Hispanic American working class vote.  So, that leaves only a question with the white working class.  Are you essentially making a comment about the white working class (a dwindling demographic segment BTW) and their right-wing populist proclivities?</p>
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		<title>By: hayden fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-6994</link>
		<dc:creator>hayden fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-6994</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s hope for the next Steve Jobs and not the next Bill Gates.  Either way, both of them were rebels who rejected conventional thinking and strategies and challenged stereo-types across the board.  Where else but America would people like that not be imprisoned or otherwise extinguished by local and national power brokers and governments.  We like to talk about Dubai, India and China; but women have no rights in Arab-controlled countries and what rights do people have in China and India.  Who can truly challenge the status quo in those countries.  Only in America can personalities like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates truly thrive.  Only in America can truly diverse enclaves sprout-up, prosper and spring forward new entrepreneurs who bring new innovations to life.  Jobs did much more than create a great computing products, he created a new culture.  If you look at what he did at Apple during the early days and, in particular, Next when started-it, Jobs changed the corporate culture and philosophies in ways as revolutionary as Henry Ford when Ford created the assembly line.  The Google model is really the Jobs&#039; model, 2.0.  Only in America can such a pioneer not be snuffed out by the powers-that-be before he or she and his or her vision have truly arrived.  And you don&#039;t create that kind of thinking and commitment in think-tanks, university labs or other manufactured environments.  It can only occur organically and, frankly, only in America-- at least now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s hope for the next Steve Jobs and not the next Bill Gates.  Either way, both of them were rebels who rejected conventional thinking and strategies and challenged stereo-types across the board.  Where else but America would people like that not be imprisoned or otherwise extinguished by local and national power brokers and governments.  We like to talk about Dubai, India and China; but women have no rights in Arab-controlled countries and what rights do people have in China and India.  Who can truly challenge the status quo in those countries.  Only in America can personalities like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates truly thrive.  Only in America can truly diverse enclaves sprout-up, prosper and spring forward new entrepreneurs who bring new innovations to life.  Jobs did much more than create a great computing products, he created a new culture.  If you look at what he did at Apple during the early days and, in particular, Next when started-it, Jobs changed the corporate culture and philosophies in ways as revolutionary as Henry Ford when Ford created the assembly line.  The Google model is really the Jobs&#8217; model, 2.0.  Only in America can such a pioneer not be snuffed out by the powers-that-be before he or she and his or her vision have truly arrived.  And you don&#8217;t create that kind of thinking and commitment in think-tanks, university labs or other manufactured environments.  It can only occur organically and, frankly, only in America&#8211; at least now.</p>
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		<title>By: CR</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/01/class-politics-3/comment-page-1/#comment-6992</link>
		<dc:creator>CR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4634#comment-6992</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not seeing how &quot;Joe the Plumber&quot; and people like him are going to be left behind - their jobs cannot be outsourced and people always need their services.  We are pegging our future on creativity, but creativity can flourish anywhere.  Who is to say the next Bill Gates would not be some enterprising street child from Rio De Janeiro, Bombay or Lagos?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not seeing how &#8220;Joe the Plumber&#8221; and people like him are going to be left behind &#8211; their jobs cannot be outsourced and people always need their services.  We are pegging our future on creativity, but creativity can flourish anywhere.  Who is to say the next Bill Gates would not be some enterprising street child from Rio De Janeiro, Bombay or Lagos?</p>
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