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	<title>Comments on: Class Politics II</title>
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		<title>By: Buzzcut</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7248</link>
		<dc:creator>Buzzcut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 21:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7248</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if anyone is monitoring this thread anymore, but...

Thanks for the honest, thoughtful replies.  Michael Wells, especially, I think your reply was the most helpful.

Why would social &quot;openess&quot; trump marginal tax rates?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if anyone is monitoring this thread anymore, but&#8230;</p>
<p>Thanks for the honest, thoughtful replies.  Michael Wells, especially, I think your reply was the most helpful.</p>
<p>Why would social &#8220;openess&#8221; trump marginal tax rates?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7213</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7213</guid>
		<description>Hayden,

The problem with tax credits is that they require someone with a tax burden. For the past few decades low income housing in America has been financed with tax credits, bought by banks. Money for new affordable housing projects has just dried up, at a time it&#039;s desperately needed. I expect historic properties are in the same boat although I don&#039;t work with them much.

It may be one reason your rails are improved while the Northwest&#039;s have deteriorated is that there&#039;s not the financial incentives to improve them here. Our exports are largely commodities (wheat, lumber) which come to the port by barge or aren&#039;t as time sensitive, along with microchips which tend to be shipped by air or truck. But a side effect is that Portland-Seattle-Vancouver Amtrak, one of the obvious high speed rail routes is a joke. 

Tax credits have their place, don&#039;t get me wrong. But they&#039;re not a complete substitute for direct government investment where its needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hayden,</p>
<p>The problem with tax credits is that they require someone with a tax burden. For the past few decades low income housing in America has been financed with tax credits, bought by banks. Money for new affordable housing projects has just dried up, at a time it&#8217;s desperately needed. I expect historic properties are in the same boat although I don&#8217;t work with them much.</p>
<p>It may be one reason your rails are improved while the Northwest&#8217;s have deteriorated is that there&#8217;s not the financial incentives to improve them here. Our exports are largely commodities (wheat, lumber) which come to the port by barge or aren&#8217;t as time sensitive, along with microchips which tend to be shipped by air or truck. But a side effect is that Portland-Seattle-Vancouver Amtrak, one of the obvious high speed rail routes is a joke. </p>
<p>Tax credits have their place, don&#8217;t get me wrong. But they&#8217;re not a complete substitute for direct government investment where its needed.</p>
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		<title>By: hayden fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7187</link>
		<dc:creator>hayden fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 05:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7187</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I do think that Obama will govern under a new paradigm and be transformational in a way that transcends race.  It&#039;s hard to say what that will be.  I&#039;ve been telling people for more than 2 years that we&#039;re in the beginning of a historic new era.  It&#039;s exciting and yielding of trepidation all at the same time.  But the world has never been more interconnected and Obama will inspire people at home and abroad in ways that no other US President ever has, in part because he&#039;s uniquely gifted to do so and also because he&#039;s lucky to be at the right place at the right time in history.  The next 8 years should be exciting!

I&#039;ll find some articles for you on the tax and rail issues...

Hayden</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I do think that Obama will govern under a new paradigm and be transformational in a way that transcends race.  It&#8217;s hard to say what that will be.  I&#8217;ve been telling people for more than 2 years that we&#8217;re in the beginning of a historic new era.  It&#8217;s exciting and yielding of trepidation all at the same time.  But the world has never been more interconnected and Obama will inspire people at home and abroad in ways that no other US President ever has, in part because he&#8217;s uniquely gifted to do so and also because he&#8217;s lucky to be at the right place at the right time in history.  The next 8 years should be exciting!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll find some articles for you on the tax and rail issues&#8230;</p>
<p>Hayden</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7186</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 05:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7186</guid>
		<description>Hayden,

I was actually talking about individual taxes, which is what most of the campaign rhetoric has been about. I haven&#039;t read as much about corporate taxes, but I suspect your idea of closing loopholes and targeted incentives are at least as important as rates. I also suspect that nations and individual states aren&#039;t able to effectively tax corporations any more, although I don&#039;t know what the solution is. Corporations and capital are global today, beyond the reach of local authorities.

Maybe in your part of the world the rail infrastructure has been re-built, out here it&#039;s still a mess, subject to landslides and long delays. One of the many issues for the new administration.

I think the Center, like the Left and Right, is an outdated way to look at the needed politics. The Democrats long for the early 1930&#039;s and 1960&#039;s. The Republicans long for the early 1920&#039;s and 1980&#039;s. But bringing back last millennium&#039;s policies will be inadequate in today&#039;s world. What Obama and the new Democratic (or hopefully bi-partisan) Congress will need is entirely new paradigms. Bill Clinton for all his abilities was a transitional figure, holding back the barbarians. Bush was an incompetent attempt to turn back the clock. Obama must be a transformational leader taking us forward. People thought Colin Powell was talking race, but I think he meant something much bigger. Obama&#039;s community organizing model campaign and internet fundraising have hopefully been indications that he can find new ways of leading and governing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hayden,</p>
<p>I was actually talking about individual taxes, which is what most of the campaign rhetoric has been about. I haven&#8217;t read as much about corporate taxes, but I suspect your idea of closing loopholes and targeted incentives are at least as important as rates. I also suspect that nations and individual states aren&#8217;t able to effectively tax corporations any more, although I don&#8217;t know what the solution is. Corporations and capital are global today, beyond the reach of local authorities.</p>
<p>Maybe in your part of the world the rail infrastructure has been re-built, out here it&#8217;s still a mess, subject to landslides and long delays. One of the many issues for the new administration.</p>
<p>I think the Center, like the Left and Right, is an outdated way to look at the needed politics. The Democrats long for the early 1930&#8217;s and 1960&#8217;s. The Republicans long for the early 1920&#8217;s and 1980&#8217;s. But bringing back last millennium&#8217;s policies will be inadequate in today&#8217;s world. What Obama and the new Democratic (or hopefully bi-partisan) Congress will need is entirely new paradigms. Bill Clinton for all his abilities was a transitional figure, holding back the barbarians. Bush was an incompetent attempt to turn back the clock. Obama must be a transformational leader taking us forward. People thought Colin Powell was talking race, but I think he meant something much bigger. Obama&#8217;s community organizing model campaign and internet fundraising have hopefully been indications that he can find new ways of leading and governing.</p>
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		<title>By: hayden fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7182</link>
		<dc:creator>hayden fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 00:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7182</guid>
		<description>Frank the Tank, I&#039;m with you, though I personally have decided to support Obama even though I like McCain a whole lot as well.  He&#039;s the only candidate with an urban policy agenda and I think he&#039;s a once-in-a-generation candidate.  He could easily go down as one of the best ever because as bleak as things seem now, they&#039;re much better than they look and he&#039;ll get all the credit while restoring America&#039;s image in the world.

All that said, Michael, you should truly reconsider your views on corporate taxes-- they have enormous impacts!  Look at what the European countries have done and how their economies have responded to cutting corporate tax rates.  American has one of the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX STRUCTURES IN THE WORLD.  Why would a company headquarter themselves here and pay more taxes?  Why stay here?  Corporate taxes have enormous impacts on budgeting issues and the ability to keep cash moving without having it halved by the taxman.  We should close loopholes and lower rates and provide a lot more targeted tax incentives.  Our rail infrastructure has been re-built via tax credit programs implemented during the early years of this decade and America&#039;s exports have soared as a result, frankly one of the only bright spots in our current economy.  Historic properties have been rehabilitated throughout our country via the historic tax credit program.  In any event, you&#039;re a smart guy, you can do your own research; but approach it from a non-partisan perspective.

If the Dems govern from the center, they&#039;ll be in power for a long time to come.  If not, who knows what happens.  I agree with Frank, the right-wing of the GOP will takeover the party, sadly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank the Tank, I&#8217;m with you, though I personally have decided to support Obama even though I like McCain a whole lot as well.  He&#8217;s the only candidate with an urban policy agenda and I think he&#8217;s a once-in-a-generation candidate.  He could easily go down as one of the best ever because as bleak as things seem now, they&#8217;re much better than they look and he&#8217;ll get all the credit while restoring America&#8217;s image in the world.</p>
<p>All that said, Michael, you should truly reconsider your views on corporate taxes&#8211; they have enormous impacts!  Look at what the European countries have done and how their economies have responded to cutting corporate tax rates.  American has one of the HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX STRUCTURES IN THE WORLD.  Why would a company headquarter themselves here and pay more taxes?  Why stay here?  Corporate taxes have enormous impacts on budgeting issues and the ability to keep cash moving without having it halved by the taxman.  We should close loopholes and lower rates and provide a lot more targeted tax incentives.  Our rail infrastructure has been re-built via tax credit programs implemented during the early years of this decade and America&#8217;s exports have soared as a result, frankly one of the only bright spots in our current economy.  Historic properties have been rehabilitated throughout our country via the historic tax credit program.  In any event, you&#8217;re a smart guy, you can do your own research; but approach it from a non-partisan perspective.</p>
<p>If the Dems govern from the center, they&#8217;ll be in power for a long time to come.  If not, who knows what happens.  I agree with Frank, the right-wing of the GOP will takeover the party, sadly.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7180</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7180</guid>
		<description>&quot;The rise of &#039;hockey moms,&#039; of &#039;Joe Six-Pack,&#039; and &#039;Joe the Plumber&#039; in this election cycle testify to this growing sense of unease. This is the kind of economic split that Obama tried to capture with his now infamous &#039;bitter-gate&#039; statement, which he now says he regrets.  But what can we expect from people who know that the economic system is leaving them behind?&quot;

The rise testifies to another manufactured attempt by politicians to exploit unease - unease that has been around for decades due to the lack of good (post-)industrial policies, the lack of meaningful education and retraining, and the lack of real concern for those on or near the bottom rung of the ladder.  

Obama regrets something that is true in spirit if not literally true. Yes, it&#039;s tough medicine to swallow for people whose lifestyle choices do not position them well in the 21st century (and in some cases, since the Enlightenment).

People have sensed for a long time that something is wrong but not necessarily that they are being left behind.  It was easier and politically expedient to blame other weaker groups (women and minorities entering the workforce, &quot;welfare queens,&quot; undocumented workers, etc.).  Remember Gephardt detailing a Japanese care with a sledgehammer?  There is no monopoly in stupidity and ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The rise of &#8216;hockey moms,&#8217; of &#8216;Joe Six-Pack,&#8217; and &#8216;Joe the Plumber&#8217; in this election cycle testify to this growing sense of unease. This is the kind of economic split that Obama tried to capture with his now infamous &#8216;bitter-gate&#8217; statement, which he now says he regrets.  But what can we expect from people who know that the economic system is leaving them behind?&#8221;</p>
<p>The rise testifies to another manufactured attempt by politicians to exploit unease &#8211; unease that has been around for decades due to the lack of good (post-)industrial policies, the lack of meaningful education and retraining, and the lack of real concern for those on or near the bottom rung of the ladder.  </p>
<p>Obama regrets something that is true in spirit if not literally true. Yes, it&#8217;s tough medicine to swallow for people whose lifestyle choices do not position them well in the 21st century (and in some cases, since the Enlightenment).</p>
<p>People have sensed for a long time that something is wrong but not necessarily that they are being left behind.  It was easier and politically expedient to blame other weaker groups (women and minorities entering the workforce, &#8220;welfare queens,&#8221; undocumented workers, etc.).  Remember Gephardt detailing a Japanese care with a sledgehammer?  There is no monopoly in stupidity and ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7179</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7179</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m puzzled by the obsession with marginal tax rates as an indicator of business friendliness. I&#039;m not an economist but my understanding is that tax rates up to 30-40% have very little impact on business formation or success. Much bigger impacts are high inflation, uncertainty on policies, interest rates, research funding, infrastructure, an educated and available workforce.

I think the creative class is much more concerned with these factors, and openness to new ideas, than with taxes or with political parties per se. It&#039;s a reason the creative class, and new economy, are centered in &quot;high tax&quot; cities in &quot;high tax&quot; states. The research centers, predictable government, social openness are much more important than taxes. 

Right now the Democrats look better on these issues. If they can deliver, which will require more truly new thinking and policies than we see in the campaigns, they will be the party of the future. It&#039;s difficult to see the Republicans moving in this direction in the next few years. If they both fail, the country will be in political free fall and Richard&#039;s fears may come true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m puzzled by the obsession with marginal tax rates as an indicator of business friendliness. I&#8217;m not an economist but my understanding is that tax rates up to 30-40% have very little impact on business formation or success. Much bigger impacts are high inflation, uncertainty on policies, interest rates, research funding, infrastructure, an educated and available workforce.</p>
<p>I think the creative class is much more concerned with these factors, and openness to new ideas, than with taxes or with political parties per se. It&#8217;s a reason the creative class, and new economy, are centered in &#8220;high tax&#8221; cities in &#8220;high tax&#8221; states. The research centers, predictable government, social openness are much more important than taxes. </p>
<p>Right now the Democrats look better on these issues. If they can deliver, which will require more truly new thinking and policies than we see in the campaigns, they will be the party of the future. It&#8217;s difficult to see the Republicans moving in this direction in the next few years. If they both fail, the country will be in political free fall and Richard&#8217;s fears may come true.</p>
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		<title>By: eva</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7175</link>
		<dc:creator>eva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7175</guid>
		<description>So here I am in Buffalo - poor, democratic, racially divided, blue collar Buffalo. 

Albright Knox, Frank Lloyd Wright, Burchfield Penney Museum, HH Richardson, New Era Cap, Litelab, affordable, 90 minutes from Toronto, Buffalo.
 
It seems to me that there is a whole portion of the creative class that is not wealthy and that led the way in exhibiting the values of tolerance and support for diversity: artists. 

Perhaps part of the solution to the economic divide you see stemming from the growth of the creative class is to refocus on support for those members of the creative class for whom struggle is part of what is important. Perhaps part of how an Obama administration might seek to mend the divide is to look at places like Buffalo (Detroit, etc) and look for ways to support creative class activities in ways that could help unskilled poor people. Artisan training programs, crafts, building restoration, etc. Many more expert than me know the way. Just saying that there are blue, poor, creative places to try to find the answers.

We&#039;re ready.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So here I am in Buffalo &#8211; poor, democratic, racially divided, blue collar Buffalo. </p>
<p>Albright Knox, Frank Lloyd Wright, Burchfield Penney Museum, HH Richardson, New Era Cap, Litelab, affordable, 90 minutes from Toronto, Buffalo.</p>
<p>It seems to me that there is a whole portion of the creative class that is not wealthy and that led the way in exhibiting the values of tolerance and support for diversity: artists. </p>
<p>Perhaps part of the solution to the economic divide you see stemming from the growth of the creative class is to refocus on support for those members of the creative class for whom struggle is part of what is important. Perhaps part of how an Obama administration might seek to mend the divide is to look at places like Buffalo (Detroit, etc) and look for ways to support creative class activities in ways that could help unskilled poor people. Artisan training programs, crafts, building restoration, etc. Many more expert than me know the way. Just saying that there are blue, poor, creative places to try to find the answers.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re ready.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank the Tank</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7172</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank the Tank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7172</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always fashioned myself as a libertarian Republican, meaning that I&#039;m liberal on social issues but base my vote more on how well a candidate adheres to free market and low-tax economic policies.  In the Republican Party of Ronald Reagan, those economic issues always took precedence over the socially conservative underpinnings of the party&#039;s base.  However, I&#039;ve become increasingly disenchanted with what Richard has pointed out, which is the movement of the GOP toward becoming almost solely a socially conservative populist party.

I fear that the Republican Party will have the wrong takeaway in the more-likely-than-not event that John McCain loses tomorrow, where the socially conservative base will claim that the party lost because he didn&#039;t adhere to their supposed &quot;values&quot; strongly enough.  The Rush Limbaughs and Ann Coulters of the world will invariably trumpet this argument and you can see it already in the conservative blogosphere.  Any rational observer can see that this is the exact opposite, though, where McCain is actually polling better than the Republican Party overall.  (One can only imagine how this race would have looked if Mike Huckabee was the nominee.)  Thus, the Republican Party is at the proverbial crossroads where they can either choose to become a more inclusive party that is open the increasingly libertarian streak of Americans or it can be an ideologically pure party.  I&#039;ll be voting for McCain tomorrow for various reasons (and I&#039;m looked at as an alien for doing so here in my hometown of Chicago), but if the GOP chooses the latter course in the long run, this year might the last year that I&#039;ll be placing a vote in the Republican column at the national level for a very long time.  My in-depth thoughts on this subject are here:

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/the-gops-two-options-build-an-inclusive-majority-or-become-the-permanent-minority/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always fashioned myself as a libertarian Republican, meaning that I&#8217;m liberal on social issues but base my vote more on how well a candidate adheres to free market and low-tax economic policies.  In the Republican Party of Ronald Reagan, those economic issues always took precedence over the socially conservative underpinnings of the party&#8217;s base.  However, I&#8217;ve become increasingly disenchanted with what Richard has pointed out, which is the movement of the GOP toward becoming almost solely a socially conservative populist party.</p>
<p>I fear that the Republican Party will have the wrong takeaway in the more-likely-than-not event that John McCain loses tomorrow, where the socially conservative base will claim that the party lost because he didn&#8217;t adhere to their supposed &#8220;values&#8221; strongly enough.  The Rush Limbaughs and Ann Coulters of the world will invariably trumpet this argument and you can see it already in the conservative blogosphere.  Any rational observer can see that this is the exact opposite, though, where McCain is actually polling better than the Republican Party overall.  (One can only imagine how this race would have looked if Mike Huckabee was the nominee.)  Thus, the Republican Party is at the proverbial crossroads where they can either choose to become a more inclusive party that is open the increasingly libertarian streak of Americans or it can be an ideologically pure party.  I&#8217;ll be voting for McCain tomorrow for various reasons (and I&#8217;m looked at as an alien for doing so here in my hometown of Chicago), but if the GOP chooses the latter course in the long run, this year might the last year that I&#8217;ll be placing a vote in the Republican column at the national level for a very long time.  My in-depth thoughts on this subject are here:</p>
<p><a href="http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/the-gops-two-options-build-an-inclusive-majority-or-become-the-permanent-minority/" rel="nofollow">http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/the-gops-two-options-build-an-inclusive-majority-or-become-the-permanent-minority/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jim H</title>
		<link>http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2008/11/02/class-politics-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-7168</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/?p=4642#comment-7168</guid>
		<description>Buzzcut,
I&#039;m perplexed as well.  For my part, I don&#039;t know anyone or have any friends who vote for democrats, and that includes doctors,techies and so forth. It gets frustrating to see creative people I know lumped into some sort of left-wing supermajority, even though it&#039;s not true, even if they happen to live in a spiky city.

This total disconnect between self-interest and voting the other way, proves to me that we have a cult of personality in effect for 2008.  All the armchair quarterbacking by the left over the past 8 years will come back to haunt them as soon as our junior senator takes office and his &quot;gaffe-machine&quot; number two start blundering on a global scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buzzcut,<br />
I&#8217;m perplexed as well.  For my part, I don&#8217;t know anyone or have any friends who vote for democrats, and that includes doctors,techies and so forth. It gets frustrating to see creative people I know lumped into some sort of left-wing supermajority, even though it&#8217;s not true, even if they happen to live in a spiky city.</p>
<p>This total disconnect between self-interest and voting the other way, proves to me that we have a cult of personality in effect for 2008.  All the armchair quarterbacking by the left over the past 8 years will come back to haunt them as soon as our junior senator takes office and his &#8220;gaffe-machine&#8221; number two start blundering on a global scale.</p>
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